If man has a moral compass, then sin is surely the magnet which renders it useless for navigation!
With no means to fix a bearing on true north, no matter his greatest efforts, he will ultimately steer off course and be driven onto the rocks! For what seems the right course in his own estimation, will prove in the end to lead him to his destruction.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Proverbs 14:12
His only hope lay in the bright beacon of salvation - Jesus Christ! The lighthouse of eternal life. The Saviour of our souls! He is the way, the truth and the life. By faith, we must entrust ourselves to him - putting our confidence, not in the flesh, but in the faithfulness of His promises and his ability to save to the utmost all who come to him!
Tuesday, December 16, 2008
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24 comments:
lol, this was a coincidental posting, appearing just after I posted my comment on the previous post.
Are you suggesting that humans cannot, in the absence of J.C., live moral lives?
Amen to that! So very true.
From what I see from myself, my 'moral' sometimes is even driven by 'hidden intention', mood and good circumstances. :)
Hey CC.
No one can live a perfectly moral life! It is impossible! That’s the whole point! Christians are not saved because they live moral lives; they are saved because they believe the promises of God – that he would impute their sin to their Saviour – Jesus Christ, and the righteousness of their Saviour to them. That is why they are called believers.
Jesus Christ didn’t come to this earth to make bad people good, he came to make dead people live! By faith in Him!
There are many people who are trying to live up to a moral code which they can never satisfy. By doing so, they hope to obtain eternal life through their own goodness and merit. In the end this way will lead to destruction – for faith does not come through mans good works, but through faith in Christ. No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
The problem with trying to justify yourself by the law, is that once you have broken it – you’re dead! You cannot undo it. A single transgression of the law forever ruins moral purity in the same way that a single act of sexual intercourse brings an end to ones virginity.
The law does, however, show us our need for a saviour - which God has promised us! He is our beacon of hope! Believers are those who, boots and all, have let go of all vain attempts to save themselves, and have entrusted themselves completely to Him! For He who has promised to save us is faithful and true – and we love Him for that!
Sam,
Oh I am well aware of Christian doctrine. What should serve as a hint to you about the inherent injustice of God's system is in your opening line.
No one can live a perfectly moral life! It is impossible!
Very true, no can live a morally perfect life. Indeed anyone who could would not be human in any meaningful sense. God is determined to punish humans precisely for being human. He demands a standard that we all agree is unattainable. This is commonly referred to as unfair. It would be akin to putting a starving child in a room full of sweets and expecting them to not eat any. It is simply not a resaonable position to take. There have been many people though, both religious and non-religious who have lived excellent lives in terms of moral judgement and action. Certainly they would have made mistakes at some point in their lives but such mistakes are trival in the view of a whole human life. You can try all you want but the fact that someone who has worked very hard to make life better for many people is not a bad person for having told a few lies or losing their temper once in a while. Even Jesus did that and by his own standard "was a murderer in his heart". If God himself cannot abide by the standard then it seems tyrannical in the extreme that he would consider it just to condemn someone for eternity for slight transgresions of impossible standard. Religious indoctrination and the base and immoral worldview described in the bible might try to convince you that telling a lie to save someones feelings is exactly comparable to killing and torturing thousands of people (and is what God maintains - both sins unrepented result in the exact same punishment) but if you allow your common sense and humanity to shine you will see that such a system is not only unjust but makes a mockery of the very concept of justice.
I am not trying to save myself by living a good life. I am not seeking eternal life. Personally, I think living forever sounds like a kind of hell in its own right. I encourage to meditate a while on the notion of heaven and eternal life. It is not a thing I would want even were it not a ridiculous notion. I believe with a great deal of certainty that when I die I will pass out of existence entirely. I will not be punished or rewarded for my actions. I think it is a terrible indictment of the religious mind that so many seem to wonder why someone would live a good life without these constaints. The answer is that I want to. I want to treat people well. I prefer to make others happy than sad. I cannot alter the ways of other men but I hold myself responsible for my own actions. I am responsible to me. I am not perfect. I have made mistakes in the past and assuredly I will again in the future. I have no need to be perfect. What understanding could have of others who do small harms if I had never done so myself. What manner of advice could I give. God commits almost every sin he himself decries and yet in his perfect justice he is simply above the law. Even we imperfect humans understand that for any law to be just it must apply to all, otherwise is just a rule of a tyrant. I say we can live morally good lives, not perfect to be sure but who here thinks that perfection is required. Only God demands that and demands it in the sure knowledge that it is not possible.
Hi CC.
You may be aware of Christian doctrine, but you do not understand it. If you did, you would have repented long ago and put your faith in Jesus Christ. Instead, you remain an enemy of God – evidenced by your hatred for Him and those who put their faith in Him.
Have you ever wondered why it is that you can say nothing kind about God? It is because we cannot speak kindly of those we hate!
Lucifer is not only the accuser of the brethren; he is also the accuser of God! What do you think Lucifer will be judged for: attempting to exalt himself above God, lying to Adam and Eve in the garden, deceiving millions, waring against the saints or hating God with every fibre of his being – does it matter? What will you be judged for? Your slight indiscretions, simply living your life to please yourself, your lying, your lust, or your very own home grown, personal hatred for God – which manifests itself against Him and His children quite evidently in the blogosphere?
You have joined in unison with you father to accuse God of being an unjust, immoral, evil being!
Your comments about Jesus Christ sinning raise an excellent point worth talking about. Take the following passage:
“But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.” Romans 3:21-26
If Christ had sinned, then he would be no more presentable as an atoning sacrifice than you or I. The lamb that was slain had to be perfect, without spot or blemish. If Christ was a sinner, then we are without hope – and as the apostle Paul says – we are to be pitied more than all men! Perhaps if you truly believed Christ was a sinner, you would pity us poor believers!
Though you are yourself an enemy of God now, he is calling you to repent and put your faith in Him. If you turn to Him, He will pardon you!
The words recorded by Isaiah the prophet are just as true today as then - “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”
Sam, I hope you don't mind my adding a comment to The Celtic Chimp. It seems to me that you are crying out to repent and run from what you are facing. Often times I've heard people dog the Christian faith so much that they start to not make much sense.
I have but one question for you. What do you have to loose by putting your faith in the Lord? You might actually be suprised at what happens with your life. Believe me, our trials and tribulations have all been worth it. I've not lived a better life than since coming back to the Lord. My husband has become such a wonderful man since giving himself to the Lord that people are amazed and love the change. So to tell us that it can't be and isn't real makes me hurt for you, the unsaved soul. May your eyes, ears, and heart be opened to Him. I pray that someday you will understand.
As it is written "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" 2 Corinthians 5:17
Thank you Omah for sharing your testimony of the good things that God is doing in your lives! I am constantly amazed at how God is working in my own life, and that of my wife. I know for a fact that He can melt the hardest heart, and cause the most stubborn to surrender and follow Him – for He has been working to this end in my life – and I love Him for that!
There is nothing to fear in coming to Christ. He is meek and gentle! “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.” Matthew 11:28-29
Yes, there will be trials and tribulation. He will prune you and clean you, and put you through the refiner’s fire – but He does it with so much love – it is worth it. It is worth it!
You may be aware of Christian doctrine, but you do not understand it. If you did, you would have repented long ago and put your faith in Jesus Christ. Instead, you remain an enemy of God – evidenced by your hatred for Him and those who put their faith in Him.
I don't hate Christians! Does a parent who has a child brainwashed by a cult hate their child when they try to talk sense to them?
I am annoyed with Christians for being so damn gullible and forsaking the truth for they find to be a pleasent fiction.
Have you ever wondered why it is that you can say nothing kind about God? It is because we cannot speak kindly of those we hate!
Sam, I am starting to wonder if you even know what an atheist is. I don't hate God. I don't believe he exists. You think the character God in your story the bible is a good character but you think this not by observing the character objectively but by view his action and utterence though the lens of faith. Muslims do it to. The hadith describes the life of mohammed and it shows him to be a rapist, a mass murderer, a theif, a torturer and a peadophile. Reada it and you will see him as exactly these things. The muslim however views him though the eyes of faith and he is lauded as the holiest man that ever lived.
All that stuff about lucifer..... see above.
I seems that all I have accused you of is ignoring the truth in favour of fiction. Did you just suggest I am a son of the anti-christ, lol. I don't believe in that one either :)
If Christ had sinned, then he would be no more presentable as an atoning sacrifice than you or I. The lamb that was slain had to be perfect, without spot or blemish. If Christ was a sinner, then we are without hope – and as the apostle Paul says – we are to be pitied more than all men! Perhaps if you truly believed Christ was a sinner, you would pity us poor believers!
I though getting angry with people was a sin. Jesus got angry with people. Is Jesus therefore a sinner? You tell me? Was it ok for him to be a "murderer in his heart" for some reason. Just one more special dispensation for his own son?
Though you are yourself an enemy of God now, he is calling you to repent and put your faith in Him. If you turn to Him, He will pardon you!
enemy you say? I am no more God's enemy than I am the tooth fairy's. If I were to truely have free will, should I not have the freedom to reject God. If you put a gun to someone's head and tell them they can co-operate or die, they technically have free will. They can choose to die. This is the kind of choice you say God presents. In the real world this is referred to as threatening someone. It is coersion. It is very far removed from justice.
I don't hate you Sam or Ohma or any other Christian. I just think you are very very wrong. Try not to think of it as a "with us or against us" kind of thing.
Oh by the way. The Jesus sinning thing is a great test of Christian Intellectual honesty.
On the one hand they can admit that the bible describes Jesus getting angry with people but thereby admit that he has fallen afowl of his own ludicrous standard of thought-crime.
On the other hand they can pretend that someone it was special and ok for Jesus to be angry and that he really hasn't sinned at all, thereby preserving their faith but kissing their intellectual honesty goodbye.
You didn't answer the question, you just used some kind of strange Christian logic. Do you think Jesus sinned or not?
Omah,
Can I suggest you put your faith in mohammed. What have you got to lose?
Oh one other thought (sorry about the mutliple posts)
It is written in the bible
He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered? (Job 9:4)
This is a retorical question clearly meant to suggest that anyone who "hardens himself" against God will NOT prosper. It is also clear from the context of the book of Job that this prospering was meant in physical terms. Numbers of sheep etc. Is it odd then that almost all of the wealthiest men in the world are non-Christian?
Could the bible be wrong? Yes. It is wrong. This is not at all surprising to an atheist but it must be a bummer to a Christian. Once more the Christian is faces with a dilemma. Accept the fact that the bible is wrong or make up something to make it all ok at the cost of their intellectual honesty.
CC, W
Well we obviously have our differing opinions here. If the Bible is so wrong, then why is there more and more proof being found that what the Bible says is truth?
Do you ever watch the discovery channel, or read or listen to anything of scientific findings? I just watched a program tonight that has so much proof and evidence found it was amazing. There was absolutely no room for denial.
You had stated, "I don't hate you Sam or Ohma or any other Christian. I just think you are very very wrong. Try not to think of it as a "with us or against us" kind of thing."
Speaking for myself, I didn't think you hate us, it's just hard to understand where you are coming from with some of your statements. I'm not thinking of it as a "with us or against us kind of thing at all." I believe in people having the free will to decide for themselves. Just sharing the fact that I hope you someday will enjoy the wonderful experience and believe. Just as you stated about your rights, we have the right to believe what we do.
To me, there is a big difference between thought, and actually experiencing. I've experienced too many things to not believe in Christ. This is why I hope that people come to realize, and why I write about it.
Believe as you wish also.
Just as the Lord never gave up on us, neither shall we. We are your friend, not your enemy.
Hey Omah. Thank you for your lovely words. They are full of grace and truth!
Hey CC,
I've been pondering this question today, and hope you will stop to think about it... Do you pursue followers of Shiva, Budda, Krishna (et al) with as much vigour as Christians? If not, or not at all, do you think there might be something a little more to it than you simply being "annoyed with Christians for being so damn gullible"? If you find that Christians are the only group of people that you want to re-educate - then can you pause and consider whether your fight is not about something more?
"Sam, I am starting to wonder if you even know what an atheist is." Isn't an atheist... a theist who just doesn't want to submit to his creator? :)
I don't doubt that you believe sincerely that you don't believe, just as I believe sincerely that I am a believer. Question is, who is right?
Whether or not you are the anti-Christ (or the son of the anti-Christ)? According to the Scripture, any man who denies that Jesus is the Christ - is anti Christ. Against Christ.
Did Jesus get angry with the people who had turned his Fathers house into a marketplace? Yes. Was that sin? No. What was the motivating factor behind his anger? Was it his own self interest, selfishness, pride? Or the glory of the Father who is to be forever praised! If you see a situation where a conman is ripping off an old lady who doesn't have a clue, and anger rises within at the actions of this man, and that motivates you go over and have words with the guy who’s robbing her blind and you rescue her and drive him away? Is that sin?
You said, "If I were to truly have free will, should I not have the freedom to reject God." You can reject God all you like – and you are! But by rejecting the only one who can save you, you cut yourself off from any hope when you jump from time into eternity! God doesn’t want you to perish. Neither do I. I am doing all I can to persuade you to consider these things. My speech may be hard at times – but I want to you to come into the light – that we might have fellowship with one another, and with Christ!
In regards to my usage of the word hate. There are many facets to the word - and the emotion! From intense dislike to complete apathy. You may not want to slaughter me and hang me from a lamp post somewhere (then again, maybe you might) - but the Scriptures are clear. If you are fighting against the light, it is because you want to stay in the darkness. And if you love darkness, you hate the light.
According to the Scriptures, you have been created by God, given life to seek and serve him... but by spending your energies denying His existence and arguing against Him - you are, as the Scripture says an enemy. But Christ died for his enemies! He loves his enemies! He died for people like you and I!
Man, I’d love to see you blogging one day of how the Lord has saved you and brought you out of darkness into light… how He has so changed your heart that you want to love and serve Him forever!
I'm looking forward to that day!
Can I suggest you put your faith in mohammed. What have you got to lose?
Eternal Life! Jesus Christ has promised eternal life to all those who come to Him.
He who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have life!
It is also clear from the context of the book of Job that this prospering was meant in physical terms. Numbers of sheep etc.
Would an eternal God - the source of all truth & life - knowing our short years on this earth only consider prosperity in purely physical terms? Would he not rather consider prosperity from an eternal perspective?
I would much rather dwell with Him forever, than have a fist full of bucks and a paddock full of sheep for a few short years.
Like Esau, who traded his birthright for a bowl of soup, many trade eternal life for a few short years of pleasure!
Sam,
Did Jesus get angry with the people who had turned his Fathers house into a marketplace? Yes. Was that sin? No. What was the motivating factor behind his anger? Was it his own self interest, selfishness, pride? Or the glory of the Father who is to be forever praised!
This is a prime example of intellectual dishonesty. When Jesus declared that to be angry with someone was to be "a murderer in your heart" he did not list any caveats. He made no distinction between one kind of anger and another. He simply stated it. You are telling me what God meant to say. You are interpreting Jesus words to suit yourself. You will ignore the fact that Jesus meant what he said as he said it because it poses a problem for your rigid faith. Better to believe that Jesus was just not being clear than to accept that it might not all be true.
15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
The concept of righteous anger is invented to get around this little problem. It is intellectual dishonesty par-excellence.
It is called intellectual dishonesty because anyone can explain away ANY contradictory evidence in any world view if they are willing to invent caveats and provisos when they know full well that the statements made did not include those caveats initially.
I could propose that there is someone standing right next to me. You might say that is not true because you can't see them. I can then simply invent another property of this person to get around this obvious difficulty. No matter what you say, I can excuse it.
It goes something like this:
Me: "Say hello to Bob"
You: "Who? Where is he"
Me: Glancing to my right "He's right here"
You: "There is no-one there"
Me: "Yes there is!"
You: "Then how come I can't see anyone"
Me: "Oh! thats because he is invisible"
You: "What??" - you start waving your hands through the air by hy side - "How come I can't touch him either?"
Me: "He is intangible - he says hi by the way"
You: "I didn't hear anything"
Me: "Thats because only I can hear him"
You: shaking head - "He is imaginary isn't he?"
Me: "How dare you! You can't prove that!!"
You really can't prove it either. You know quite well that I am either lying or deluded but it is impossible to prove. I know that your objections are reasonable but I am making stuff up so I can still believe Bob exists. This is intellectually dishonest. I refuse to admit that not being able to see, hear or touch bob raises very serious questions about his actual existence. In fact, to maintain the belief that bob is real I should need some spectacularly convincing evidence as we know the people are not invisible, intangible and inaudible. It should require a huge mountain of evidence for me to believe that the hitherto impossible is actually existent.
You said, "If I were to truly have free will, should I not have the freedom to reject God." You can reject God all you like – and you are! But by rejecting the only one who can save you, you cut yourself off from any hope when you jump from time into eternity! God doesn’t want you to perish. Neither do I. I am doing all I can to persuade you to consider these things. My speech may be hard at times – but I want to you to come into the light – that we might have fellowship with one another, and with Christ!
You miss the point. Am I truly free to decide when I am threatened with eternal torture. That is not a choice, it is a coercive threat. If I told you to give me all your money or I was going to massacre you entire extended family, would you really consider that a choice? It is on a purely technical level but in reality we know it isn't really. The same applies to God's "offer". God just phrases it differently.
I make up a reason why I should massacre your family and then pretend to be loving an merciful by suggesting that I will massacre my own family instead of yours if you give me all your money. Aren't I fine and generous!
You can refuse (but not really)
A choice is only truly a choice if your decision does not bear punishment for going against the choice poser's wishes.
I did not ask to be created, I did not ask Jesus to die for me. I simply find myself in existence and being threatened with eternal torture for doing what comes naturally for me to do. The situation is entirely divorced from anything we would honestly associate with free will.
Would an eternal God - the source of all truth & life - knowing our short years on this earth only consider prosperity in purely physical terms? Would he not rather consider prosperity from an eternal perspective?
Here again is intellectual dishonesty. The book of Job makes a lengthy point about Job's prosperity after God stops tormenting him - which God did in response to goading from the devil. Not the brightest spark, God.) It goes so far as to list off what he owns, the number of children he has and so on. Let's ignore for a minute the fact that Job seems quite satisfied at the end with what God has given him. The loss of his first family is quite alright because he has a replacement! - cold to put it mildly). It is absolutely contextually clear from the book of Job that it is earthly prosperity that is being discussed.
Would an eternal God care about earthly prosperity when compared to eternal life? No, I'd have to agree that he likely would not but I think a tribal bronze age culture would care very much about earthly reward. Is it surprising considering the originating culture that the book of Job centers around livestock and children. Not in the least. Is it surprising if the book was inspired by an all-powerful, omniscient entity. Well, yes it is very surprising, doesn't really make sense at all in fact. So do you read it as it is written, no. You compromise your intellectual honesty to make excuses (this time the good old "it is just a metaphor" line) so that the writing match up with what you have been taught to believe.
Whether or not you are the anti-Christ (or the son of the anti-Christ)? According to the Scripture, any man who denies that Jesus is the Christ - is anti Christ. Against Christ.
"You are either with us or against us." The rallying cry/threat of every totalitarian despot throughout history.
If you are fighting against the light, it is because you want to stay in the darkness. And if you love darkness, you hate the light.
This is what I like to call flowery gibberish.
Allow me to paraphrase.
"I am right. I like good things. If you disagree with me, you must hate good things"
I think you are fighting against the light of good sense and reason. If you are fighting against these things you must therefore love bad sense and unreason.
Can I suggest you put your faith in mohammed. What have you got to lose?
Eternal Life! Jesus Christ has promised eternal life to all those who come to Him.
So does Allah....and yes he does despite the Christian propaganda to the contrary.
I've been pondering this question today, and hope you will stop to think about it... Do you pursue followers of Shiva, Budda, Krishna (et al) with as much vigour as Christians? If not, or not at all, do you think there might be something a little more to it than you simply being "annoyed with Christians for being so damn gullible"? If you find that Christians are the only group of people that you want to re-educate - then can you pause and consider whether your fight is not about something more?
I tend not to encounter as many people of other faiths, hardly surprising being an English speaking citizen of the predominately Christian west. I most certainly peruse those of other faiths with just as much vigor as I do Christians. In fact, I tend to be considerably harsher with Muslims than any other group. I find Islam to be a particularly odious religion.
You are attempting to imply that I am in some way a believer, that my ire is a reaction to a guilty conscience or some thing of that nature. I'm not and it isn't.
Tell me, what do you think of Muslims, do you think their faith reasonable. I also think your assertion that even in a Muslim country you would somehow wind up Christian is a horrible example of just how much you are willing to delude yourself. You are basically saying that God is choosing not to reach all those Muslims out there but in your case he would!! This seems arrogant and dishonest. Is a Muslim child who dies without knowing Christ (because they have been indoctrinated all their life about Mohammad) going to go to hell? The answer is an unequivocal yes in your world view. It is that sort of thinking that makes me a little sick when I hear the self-righteous and often downright smug assertions by Christians about how just their wonderful God is. It is difficult to not be a little disgusted by someone who thinks a child being tortured forever could ever be just. You know that this is an unfair thing. You know that it is unjust but you will go along with it anyway because you have faith. You will make excuses, pretend to know the nature of God, even though the bible tells you you can't. Anything but admit that the God you believe in is unjust or worse still to your mind I think, that he just might not exist. The latter conclusion being the one to which the evidence of this world overwhelmingly speaks to.
Tell me Sam, would you sit for eternity adoring God is you know that some of your loved ones are being tortured for eternity by him? Would you still see him as just if your family were the ones on the receiving end of his "justice"?
Please don't dodge the question by suggesting that your family are true believers etc. Firstly, you can never know what anyone else is truly thinking or what they might think in the future and secondly, the question is hypothetical. I think it is far easier to laud God's justice when it is some faceless "sinner" who is been punished forever
Perhaps I am not as loving and forgiving and righteous as God but I don't think anyone deserves eternal punishment. I think the notion is cruel and sadistic.
The “Christian” west is anything but Christian. America, Australia, Europe are largely godless nations. Though there is a “Christian” ethic in the culture, the majority are not Christians! The majority still have wicked, selfish, self-centred hearts and love their sin and serve themselves – rather than the Creator! A Christian is one who believes upon Jesus Christ for the salvation of his soul, and in the process, gladly submits himself to the Lordship of Christ, becoming obedient to the Word. Desiring to put away sin he is broken, and humble, and repentant, and seeking to grow in love and true righteousness and holiness.
God did not need the “Christian” west to make Himself known to the people of ages past. Now, as then, He is able to reach anyone, anywhere and at anytime with the truth that will set them free!
The Scriptures are clear that God has made it possible for all to know Him! Have you never read:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20
And:
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. Acts 17:26,27
God has also given every man a conscience to know, intrinsically, right from wrong! I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that if anyone, anywhere at anytime cries out from his heart to know the truth – God will reveal himself to them! Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic or professing Christian… it doesn’t matter!
Can God reach people anywhere at anytime and make himself known to them?
Have you ever read the story of a little Kru boy named Samuel Morris? It is but one, of many, examples of how God can reach anyone of us!
Samuel Morris, 14, began his life as the eldest son of a African tribal chieftain. His small tribe called Kru was hostile to another tribe called Grebos. One day Samuel Morris was caught by the Grebos and held hostage until, his tribe the cru could pay of debts. The cru tribe started to give up all they had to save Samuel. The greedy Grebos chieftain was not satisfied. He ordered Samuel beaten every day with a vine of thorns that tore the skin and inserted a fiery virus at the same time. Samuel Morris was beaten every day in front of the entire Grebos tribe until he passed out. His captors also forced him to do work in the fields. He was kept isolated, away from the other slaves. After four months wroth of whipping the Grebos chieftain decided to kill his young hostage by the cruel way imaginable. But God had different plans for the young idol worshipper.
The Grebos chieftain ordered a large pit be dug and Samuel be buried up to his head, so only his head was above the ground. Next they planned to paste honey on his face and prop his mouth open with a stick. The honey would attract fierce driver ants from a near by ant hill. While eating the honey the ants would eventually in days eat away the face as well. so the pit was dug and ready. All the Grebos gathered around the pit to witness the cruel killing.
Suddenly, a blinding light shone from the sky. The blinded captors stumbled and fell. A voice from heaven commanded Samuel to "Rise up and run away!" The ropes on his feet and hands fell off and he started to run in to the nearby woods. His body was weak from the beatings. But still he ran until he reached a stream. He drank the water until he renewed his strength. He continued to travel for days until he reached large mansion. There he met one of his childhood friends named Joey Nathan. Samuel found out he was at a white mission. Joey Nathan led Samuel to Christ.
Does God torture people in hell? Or are they tortured by the fact that they still have a craving to sin, but have no means to fulfil their own selfish, self centred desires? Or perhaps they are tortured by the knowledge that they are resigned to a hopeless, godless eternity in an inky black darkness that can be felt - a fitting end for those who loved to live in darkness in this age! Or perhaps they are actually in the presence of God for eternity, but because they are so wicked at heart, and hate him so much, it is torture to be in His holy presence!
Can I suggest you put your faith in mohammed. What have you got to lose?
Islam teaches that paradise is gained through good works and obedience to the Qur'an. The Bible, in contrast, reveals that man cannot measure up to the holy God. Only because of His mercy and love can sinners be saved through faith in Christ, who fulfilled the Law in the place of those who would believe in Him (Ephesians 2:8-9; Matthew 5:17). Therefore, Islam and Christianity cannot both be true. One is God’s Word and one is not. The truth has eternal consequences!
Sam,
The “Christian” west is anything but Christian.
No true scotsman.
This is classic:
God did not need the “Christian” west to make Himself known to the people of ages past. Now, as then, He is able to reach anyone, anywhere and at anytime with the truth that will set them free!
I take then that God is simply choosing not to bother reaching most of the people in asia? He just likes the poeple in Islamic, Hindu and Buddist countries less than those wonderful folk of the U.S. of A.? - you have at this point devorced yourslef from reality.
The Scriptures are clear that God has made it possible for all to know Him! Have you never read:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20
Oh the scriptures say it, so it must be true? Are you so blinded by your bible that you are actually incapable of even considering that it might not actually be right. How convinced would you be if I started quoting the Bagavad-Gita?
Does God torture people in hell? Or are they tortured by the fact that they still have a craving to sin, but have no means to fulfil their own selfish, self centred desires? Or perhaps they are tortured by the knowledge that they are resigned to a hopeless, godless eternity in an inky black darkness that can be felt - a fitting end for those who loved to live in darkness in this age! Or perhaps they are actually in the presence of God for eternity, but because they are so wicked at heart, and hate him so much, it is torture to be in His holy presence!
People are tortured in hell and are not in the presence of God. Read your bible.
Islam teaches that paradise is gained through good works and obedience to the Qur'an. The Bible, in contrast, reveals that man cannot measure up to the holy God. Only because of His mercy and love can sinners be saved through faith in Christ, who fulfilled the Law in the place of those who would believe in Him (Ephesians 2:8-9; Matthew 5:17). Therefore, Islam and Christianity cannot both be true. One is God’s Word and one is not. The truth has eternal consequences!
You seem to be forgetting the more likely third option. Neither are true.
Sam. I think that you are decent guy but I also think your mind has been so steeped in the bible that you are simply unable to view it objectively any more. To that end, I suspect this conversation will be fruitless. You refuse to even admit what the bible even says and you refuse to answer simple questions. I suspect your refusal is based on an unwillingness to speak against God in any way.
If God was torturing your children forever in Hell, would you love him and consider him just in heaven? A simple question. I suspect your good and proper instinct is that you would be against anyone who would harm your family. This of course conflicts with your hammered in notions that God exists and is just (despite sending people to hell). You know in your heart that you could not love anyone who would hurt your family but as it is a possibility with your "Saved by grace" line.
How can you love a God that would, nay could do such a thing. I'm sure you will find a way. Your indoctrination is seemingly total.
I will definately be holding out a hope for you that shake off this religion thing at some point but either way, I wish you and yours all the best.
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