Monday, February 2, 2009

Behold, I Am Vile!

"Behold, I am vile!" Job 40:4

Sin is the Christian's heaviest
burden--and his greatest grief.

"We are lying if we say we have fellowship
with God--but go on living in darkness."
1 John 1:6

Repentance is not only a sorrowing for
sin--but also a turning away from it;
the throwing down of the weapons of
our warfare against God.

If we truly love God, we will . . .
forsake our sins,
abandon our idols
and mortify our lusts.
An honest soul cannot do otherwise;
anything short of that would be hypocrisy.

The upright man is the one who "fears
God--and turns away from evil." Job 1:8

(Arthur Pink, "An Honest Heart")

9 comments:

captain howdy said...

But Sam--

Why should I apologize to God for being born in a fallen state? That wasn't my idea--it was God's!

Sam said...

Whether you were born in a fallen state or not, in my mind, is only a matter of academics. Either way you are fallen now!

Assuming you were not born in a fallen state, do you think you'd have done a better job than Adam?

captain howdy said...

Whether you were born in a fallen state or not, in my mind, is only a matter of academics. Either way you are fallen now!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Punishing me for being born in a fallen state is every bit as unjust as punishing me for being born male, or caucasian, etc. I didn't ask to be born, I didn't ask to be born in a fallen state--both of those things were imposed on me by God. To punish me for being born in the condition God caused me to be born in is unjust.

I'm always astonished that this is such a difficult point for believers to understand.



Assuming you were not born in a fallen state, do you think you'd have done a better job than Adam?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe; maybe not. But that misses the point. The point is that I was never given the chance. The point is that I'm being punished for the sins of another, and that is unjust.

Sam said...

Punishing me for being born in a fallen state is every bit as unjust as punishing me for being born male, or caucasian, etc.
God will not punish you for being born in a fallen state, he will punish you for loving that fallen state, loving the sin that you do! For loving it on the one hand and blaming Him for it on the other!

I didn't ask to be born,
No, neither did I. But He gave you life and you have taken that life and are living it to your own ends - the pleasing of self!

I didn't ask to be born in a fallen state
No, neither did I. But are you fighting against that fallen state? Do you hate the corruption of it, the sin, the selfish, self centered living it produces? Or are you content with it? Do you love the chance it affords you to indulge in its pleasures?

--both of those things were imposed on me by God.
Yes. And me too. Yet, God has provided a way of Salvation for all who come to him - but you can't have it both ways. You cannot on the one hand love your sin and love God. You will hate one and love the other. You must lay one aside to have the other. God has provided a way of escape. He has provided a means to redeem his people.


To punish me for being born in the condition God caused me to be born in is unjust.
There will be a multitude of people on the day of judgement who overcame this world and found salvation in God. They will stand up in judgement against those who said there is no way, or there is no God, or God is unfair it’s all his fault because He made me like this and didn't save me! For God saves all those who come to Him! But they won't come! It's not like you are tied in a chair in one corner of the room and God is in the other corner saying come to me, come to me - when you can't. It's not like you are sitting there saying "I want to! I want to! But I can't!"... The fact is, you are sitting in the chair, you love the chair, God is calling you, but you don't want to come to him because you don't want to get out of the chair! There will be no excuse for anyone of the day of Judgement! People don't seek God because they don't want to seek God! They don't want to seek God because they love their sin and don't want to give it up!

I'm always astonished that this is such a difficult point for believers to understand.
I am saddened that this is so hard for those who are lost to see!

Maybe; maybe not. But that misses the point. The point is that I was never given the chance. The point is that I'm being punished for the sins of another, and that is unjust.
You can’t argue “It’s not fair that I was born a sinner” when you love the sinful pleasures of this fallen age and don’t want to leave them and turn to God! It would be closer to the truth to say “I’m angry that God is going to punish me for the sins that I love to do!”

captain howdy said...

Hi again, Sam--

Thanks for keeping up your end of this conversation.

One thing I always need to point out to Christians is that I don't want you to misinterpret my remarks as an attempt to pull you away from your religion. If you're happy being a Christian, if it keeps you off the bottle or whatever, then I say: Run with it.

I'm just telling you why I find Christianity unconvincing, as well as correcting deliberate distortions of atheism by people like Ray Comfort.

Kind of interesting in any event.


Anyways...Onward thru the fog:

You can’t argue “It’s not fair that I was born a sinner” when you love the sinful pleasures of this fallen age and don’t want to leave them and turn to God!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually, yes I can. Whether you enjoy your sinful nature has no bearing on the fact that it was forced on you in the first place by the same Party that wants to punish you now for it hideously for all eternity. Whatever pleasure you might enjoy a few years would pale in comparison with the torments of the damned in Hell--and you asked for none of this, mind you. All imposed on you from outside. All imposed by God.

Sam said...

Hi Captain,

I don't think that the goal of your commentary is necessarily to shipwreck my faith, but rather to fight against the one who created you. Though you may disagree with me on that point! As to my motives - I would love to do or say something that would open your eyes and cause you to see your predicament…

I’m curious… what’s your history with Christianity?

You said that you find it unconvincing… I can understand that. But to the man who feels the weight of his sin, and trembles at the thought of his crimes being justly punished… the claims of Christ are no longer a matter of disinterest but of vital reality. And to him who puts his faith in Christ, it is a very real salvation – not some leap into the dark with a blind faith!

Last summer I took my wife and kids to the beach to cool off one hot afternoon and we had with us a blow up boat. The kids were with my wife building sand castles I decided to lay back in this thing and float around. While I was enjoying the rocking of the boat, and the cool water on my hands and feet – a northerly wind blew up and started blowing me out to sea. When I released what was going I was already further from the shore than I was comfortable with. I began to paddle back but could not make headway with the wind. As I got further from the shore, my sense of urgency increased, and I abandoned ship. By the time I reached the beach the boat was hundreds of meters out to sea.

Cute story, but what’s the point?

It is a good analogy for salvation. We are enjoying the pleasures of this fallen age and blind to the dangers of a hot north wind blowing us to our destruction. Some will lay there, see the shore disappearing, but will with an ignorance is bliss attitude, choose rather to enjoy the gentle rocking and cool water. Others will look around and curse the situation and blame the wind. They will see others who have made it safely to the shoreline and curse them until they themselves are blown out to sea. Still others will abandon ship and dive into the saving waters of Jesus Christ and find that they make it to the shore without harm.

By all appearances, you are the second man!


Whether you enjoy your sinful nature has no bearing on the fact that it was forced on you in the first place by the same Party that wants to punish you now for it hideously for all eternity. Whatever pleasure you might enjoy a few years would pale in comparison with the torments of the damned in Hell--and you asked for none of this, mind you. All imposed on you from outside. All imposed by God.

Some thoughts…
1. God will not punish you for being born in a fallen world. But he will punish you for your rebellion. For your love of the pleasures of this fallen age. For your fighting against the truth. For your rejecting His offer of eternal life, spitting in His face, and blaming Him for your own destruction.
2. The God of all the earth will do right. There will not be a soul in hell that does not justly deserve to be there nor will there be a soul in heaven who was unjustly saved. Salvation is freely available to all who will come to the one that provides it. If you choose not to come, you cannot lay the blame at anyone else’s feet.
3. What makes you think that God is going to eternally punish you for a finite list of sins committed while enjoying the pleasures of this fallen age? Caseation of life does not mean a cessation of transgressions. Where was the Devil when he fell? In the same way, those in hell suffering the wrath of the Lamb will themselves continue to curse and blaspheme His holy name – accusing God (amongst other things) for being unjust – just as you do now. If you are an enemy of God in this life, you will continue to be an enemy of God in the next.
4. If you reject God’s salvation, what do you expect? Seriously! Have you not read what happened to George Wilson when he rejected the President’s pardon?

captain howdy said...

@Sam--

Hi Captain,

I’m curious… what’s your history with Christianity?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raised southern baptist by parents who are still evangelical and have gone on several foreign missions. Walked down the aisle something like age 6 but started having doubts about it by the age of 10 or so. By the time I was in my late teens I could no longer ignore the obvious--that I was not comfortable as a Christian and needed out. Severed all ties with that religion shortly thereafter and have identified myself as an atheist ever since.



Some thoughts…
1. God will not punish you for being born in a fallen world. But he will punish you for your rebellion. For your love of the pleasures of this fallen age. For your fighting against the truth. For your rejecting His offer of eternal life, spitting in His face, and blaming Him for your own destruction.


~~~~~~~~~~

The problem with all this, of course, is that the reason someone rebels against God is because God programmed them to do so in the first place by cursing them with a sinful nature. According to your religion, rebellion is sin, and sin is a byproduct of the sin nature God ordained every person on the planet to be born with.

It's an inescapable conclusion: A sinful nature was not my idea and nothing I asked for. It was forced on me by God, and that makes God directly responsible for anything resulting from that fallen nature, such as rebellion.



2. The God of all the earth will do right. There will not be a soul in hell that does not justly deserve to be there nor will there be a soul in heaven who was unjustly saved. Salvation is freely available to all who will come to the one that provides it. If you choose not to come, you cannot lay the blame at anyone else’s feet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nobody goes to hell for the sins they commit. If some sinners go to hell while others go to heaven, then sin isn't the reason people go to hell. Failure to believe that a particular Palestinian rabbi created the entire universe is the real reason. Sin is just the excuse.

God created us in a fallen state and then demands that we believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, or else He'll torture us for all eternity. The problem with all this is that if He hadn't created us all in a sinful state, there'd be no need to believe something as weird as that.


3. What makes you think that God is going to eternally punish you for a finite list of sins committed while enjoying the pleasures of this fallen age? Caseation of life does not mean a cessation of transgressions. Where was the Devil when he fell? In the same way, those in hell suffering the wrath of the Lamb will themselves continue to curse and blaspheme His holy name – accusing God (amongst other things) for being unjust – just as you do now. If you are an enemy of God in this life, you will continue to be an enemy of God in the next.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you brainwash someone to kill someone else, it's not just to then punish them for the crime. You're the one who should be punished. Same principle with Christianity. You can't punish someone for simply following the same sinful nature you caused them to be born with and then call it just, because it isn't.



4. If you reject God’s salvation, what do you expect? Seriously! Have you not read what happened to George Wilson when he rejected the President’s pardon?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

See all my answers above. If He hadn't broke me in the first place, there'd be no need to fix me.

Sam said...

Hi Captain,

Thanks for sharing some of your background with me. In response, I started putting some of my background down on paper, but it turned into something I wanted to post up on the blog – so you can read it here: Salvation Is Experiential, Not Theoretical!

Please take a moment to look at this testimony (of sorts) and see whether any of it sounds familiar!

You have said a number of times, to this effect:

A sinful nature was not my idea and nothing I asked for. It was forced on me by God, and that makes God directly responsible for anything resulting from that fallen nature, such as rebellion.

When you die, and you see others born (as you) with a fallen nature yet who have entrusted themselves to God to save them, through Christ, how will that make you feel? What do you reckon you’d say when you find that your argument for rejecting God holds no water because others in the exact same boat as you, with the same nature from birth, get saved? Will that be God’s fault too?


Nobody goes to hell for the sins they commit. If some sinners go to hell while others go to heaven, then sin isn't the reason people go to hell.

Sin is transgression of God’s law. Transgressors are rebels. Yes, you will go to hell for your sins! You will go to hell for loving sin, loving the pleasures of this fallen, evil age and for hating God. There is one who can save you though! There is one who is willing to save you, even now! He is willing to take upon himself every sin you ever committed and give you eternal life – but if you reject that life, if you reject God, you will end up in hell! Is this not the greatest transgression? To reject God and reject his salvation? Ought not you go to hell for such a thing?

captain howdy said...

@Sam--

When you die, and you see others born (as you) with a fallen nature yet who have entrusted themselves to God to save them, through Christ, how will that make you feel? What do you reckon you’d say when you find that your argument for rejecting God holds no water because others in the exact same boat as you, with the same nature from birth, get saved? Will that be God’s fault too?

~~~~~~~~~~~

Whether or not some people join your religion doesn't change the fact that if God hadn't broken them in the first place by forcing them to be born under a sin curse there'd be no reason for them to have to join your religion. They wouldn't need to be saved because there'd be nothing to save them from. There's no way around that.

It's just not reasonable to believe there's a loving God that's going to torture us all forever unless we join one particular religion.




CH: Nobody goes to hell for the sins they commit. If some sinners go to hell while others go to heaven, then sin isn't the reason people go to hell.

You: Sin is transgression of God’s law. Transgressors are rebels. Yes, you will go to hell for your sins! You will go to hell for loving sin, loving the pleasures of this fallen, evil age and for hating God. There is one who can save you though! There is one who is willing to save you, even now! He is willing to take upon himself every sin you ever committed and give you eternal life – but if you reject that life, if you reject God, you will end up in hell! Is this not the greatest transgression? To reject God and reject his salvation? Ought not you go to hell for such a thing?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course not. Christians still sin and don't go to hell. That means it's possible to sin without going to hell. That in turn means that sin isn't the reason people go to hell if some still sin but escape that punishment.


Everybody sins, but only some sinners go to hell. What people really go to hell for is not joining your religion. You're asking me if people don't deserve to go to hell for not joining your religion, and the answer is "No, they don't deserve that."